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Main electrical panel inspection procedures & defects:
This article summarizes inspection of the building electrical panel, main panel, or electrical distribution and sub panels.
This article series discusses procedures for safe and effective visual inspection of residential electrical systems including electrical panels and other components, when the inspection is conducted by trained building inspection professionals, home inspectors, electrical inspectors, and electricians.
We also provide an ARTICLE INDEX for this topic, or you can try the page top or bottom SEARCH BOX as a quick way to find information you need.
Fatal Shock Hazard Warning: Inspecting electrical components and systems risks death by electrocution as well as serious burns or other injuries to the inspector or to others. Do not attempt these tasks unless you are properly trained and equipped.
In our photo, the client is pointing to a small rust spot near the corner of the electrical panel door. Rust and corrosion may have made the electrical panel or its components unsafe, including having corroded circuit breakers such that a breaker may fail to trip off in response to an over-current, or may fail to turn electrical power off internally even when the toggle switch is in the OFF position.
Match wiring gauge to ampacity - the following describe copper wire sized or gauges and the matching circuit ampacity or overcurrent protection that is required to be provided by fuse or circuit breaker:
Exceptions to these wire sizes and fusing occur for special circumstances such as air conditioners whose motors produce a brief current surge during startup.
Information in this electrical inspection article series was presented by Daniel Friedman - InspectApedia.com, and discussed by the Hudson Valley chapter of the American Society of Home Inspectors - HVASHI Seminar 12 Sept 2002, Updated 2006, 2009, Jan 2014, Aug 2018.
@J,
I'm not sure that amounts to a complete rewiring of the house. Typically what happens is the electrician installs the new panel and routes all of the circuit wires from their old panel location to the new panel and back.
Essentially the old panel becomes a giant junction box. That's the location question that you want your electrical inspector to approve.
Thanks for your reply. I really appreciate the input. Safety is definitely our number one priority. I fully understand the reason why the electrical panel can’t stay in the bathroom. Right now we’re in the thinking stage so we haven’t reached out to any contractors. We just like to have a general idea of what we’re dealing with before starting that process.
Regarding your question as to why moving the panel (without using the current one as a junction) would require a complete rework of the wiring I’ve attached a couple photos of the current box. Hopefully I’m wrong since moving it to another location in the basement would be best.
Using the current panel as a junction & putting a new one upstairs seems like a good option. I’ll reach out to our local code department to see if that’s acceptable. One problem I noticed after I posted is that the only available wall in the kitchen may not work.
We live in a 1950s rowhouse & that wall is drywall on furring strips on concrete block and there’s no space to build it out. The only other location seems to be the landing to the basement stairs but on further reading it looks like that’s not an option. Does the code have distance limits?
@J,
I appreciate the dilemma that you raise and at the same time I expect that we both take seriously the risk of death by electrocution when an electrical panel is in bathroom - the reason behind the building code requirements that you cite.
I suggest taking the question to
1. your local building department to see what alternatives the inspector considers acceptable. I note that simply extending wiring to move the panel upstairs to the kitchen might leave an enclosed electrical junction box that must remain accessible in the present panel location, but that might be acceptable to your electrical inspector.
2. your licensed electrician who can also suggest options for moving the panel, perhaps upstairs or perhaps elsewhere in the basement.
Finally you might ask for clarification: I don't understand why moving an electrical panel requires re-doing all of the home's wiring. That sound rather extensive.
My husband & I are starting to plan a full renovation of a 550sf basement. The electrical panel is located in a corner of the basement in the bathroom which is also where the main waste & water lines enter the house. To comply with current code it appears we have two choices—either move the panel or move the bathroom.
Moving the panel will require redoing the wiring for much/all of the house. Moving the bathroom will require ripping up the concrete slab to relocate the waste line. Also, for our needs, the current location of the bath is optimal so we really want to keep it where it is.
Our house is small & we don’t want to use valuable space for a separate enclosure (2.5ft x 3ft?) for the panel. Are there other options/workarounds? FYI—above the panel/bathroom is our kitchen as well as the landing to the basement stairwell. Thank you
@David Betts,
Okay so if I understand you you have a 200 amp sub panel that is quite remote or distant from the panel that feeds it is protected or the feeder line to it is protected in the main panel but there's no main switch of the sub panel but because the sub panel has fewer than six switches the electrical inspector quite likely would not have required a main disconnect there
@danjoefriedman, The switch is neither "at nor in." The only overcurrent protection for the garage sub-panel is the 200-amp main disconnect at the main service panel (located outside the house). I just find this weird. The 6-hand rule has not been violated but the electrician provided no means of isolating the subpanel.
@David Betts,
the panel does have to have a dedicated main switch
but the switch can be
at the panel,
it doesn't have to be in the panel
@danjoefriedman, Thank you. Even if the 6-hand rule is not violated, something about this arrangement bothers me but I can't put my finger on it. I guess it seems cheap. I don't like the idea of each panel not having a dedicated overcurrent device.
@David Betts,
The "rule of 6" applies: if there is no main cutoff switch close to that 200A panel and if the panel has more than 6 circuit breakers you'd expect local code officials to dis-allow it as unsafe.
If in the main electrical panel, the disconnect breaker that supplies the 200A sub panel is close enough (perhaps a few feet - local codes vary), and is visible and readily accessible then your local inspector may be satisfied.
I share Carson Dunlop's view of the case you describe.
But the "rule of 6" is a guideline, enforced by local code officials, but may not be explicit in your electrical code.
Building codes try but cannot anticipate every unsafe or goofy thing people might do.
On some houses in North Carolina, I am seeing 200 amp sub-panels without dedicated overcurrent protection in the sub-panel or in the main panel either (other than the main disconnect switch). What do you think about this arrangement? Power to the whole house has to be disconnected in order to isolate the sub-panel.
Does a 200 amp main disconnect switch in the main panel suffice as overcurrent protection for a 200-amp sub-panel? Carson & Dunlop seems to have a low opinion of this type of arrangement based on one of their diagrams, but I cannot find an NEC rule that specifically prohibits it.
Stephen
I would build whatever space or shelter is needed to give proper working space for the panel and the transfer switch. There is good reason for that working space requirement and I worry that shoehorning it in to an already too small area is in fact unsafe.
Am I correct that the cost of making space is probably small compared with the total cost of your generator, transfer switch, and electrical work?
I have a 1980's, 400 amp service to which I wish to add a 400 amp transfer switch for a 70kw generator. Although "grandfathered in", I do not have the necessary 36" (have 24") working clearance in front of the main panel which is exterior to the neighbors building.
My electrical contractor says that I do not need a 36" working clearance for the ATS as it would not require any service while energized. Otherwise, the generator would be de-energized at its source, as well as the main power. The building department says that the ATS requires a 36" frontal clearance.
There is no alternative location for installation. Any suggestions. I would assume that this is an issue that comes up, occasionally.
Anon
I'm not sure that the manufacture date is encoded in an Eaton electrical panel, though there is a date code on some circuit breakers.
Give Eaton customer service a call and let me know what you're told
877-etn-care (877-386-2273)
How can I find out when this was manufactured
Eaton BR612L125FDGP
Made in USA
Item:
0347166
Cat:
BR612L125FDGP
Mfr:
Eaton
UPC:
786676002080
Al
No.
A quick search of this website for "electrical panel in closet" finds ELECTRICAL DISTRIBUTION PANELS
where we read:
Electrical Panel Location Defects
Mains: Not in: bathroom, clothes closet, kitchen cabinets, stairwells (landing may be OK) (same as service disconnect)
Also if an electrical panel or "fuse box" is in a closet there would be an electrical panel working-distance issue:
A quick search of InspectApedia.com using the search box just above, to look for "Electrical panel clearance distances" finds
ELECTRIC PANEL WORKING SPACE which explains the required working distances or clearances around an electrical panel, its height from the floor, etc.
can the fuse box be located in closet
I'm not sure you want to put an electrical panel in a closet where access maybe two limited and unsafe and a code violation.
I need to movie an outside service panel corroded by age and sea air approximately 15 feet on the same wall that receives the service,
to a new panel inside a closet that’s close to a water heater
and use it to ground a few key outlets in the house—bathroom, kitchen, computer and living room entertainment center, for GFCI and surge protection. Is this the route to take, or is burying a grounding rod and ground the whole service panel?
That means running new conduit throughout the house. The current circuits run through different rooms but it could be used to protect other outlets on the same run with a GFCI outlet and add some grounded protection where none exist.
The conduit requirement (or flexible armored cable) depends on where in NY you live, e.g. in NYC NMC (plastic) wiring is not used.
Important is the overcurrent protection at the source-end of the wire.
I live in NY state and I'm running 100 amp wiring a detached garage from my main box in the house. The wiring will travel through the basement ceiling/first floor joists. Does the wire have to be in conduit? It is in conduit once out of the house and underground to the garage.
Thanks,
Dave
Jeff: see Bryant breaker performance data
at CIRCUIT BREAKER FAILURE RATES
Where is the problem with Bryant Panels?
(Nov 15, 2012) Leo Duprey said:
I have a 200 amp main. How many and at what sizes of subpanels can I install from this main?(June 1, 2014)
Steve Pettifer said:
I have a 100 amp panel and when I turn on a breaker it reduces the voltage on one buss and increases the voltage on the other buss. I have checked all I can and even installed a new ground. How can that happen?
Sounds strange to me too.
If this is a 2-pole breaker it could have an internal fault.
If the voltage change is small the fault may be in how it's being measured.
(June 1, 2014) Anonymous said:
I had 225 volts on a 15 amp.
The last thing I tried was a 15 amp electric heater.
That gave me 50 volts on one buss and 190 on the other.
This is a sub panel but I have replaced the 100 amp in the main just in case.
I am checking voltage from each of the buss to the common buss.
Sounds as if we're either confusing volts and amps or you've connected or made a 120V circuit to a 240V circuit by crossing wires.
Not sure how you are measuring voltage nor if the procedure is safe, but in general you would expect to see similar voltage levels on each leg of a residential panel, around 120V.
You may be confusing amps and volts; current draw from plugging something in on a circuit shouldn't change the voltage level.
Voltage measurement is discussed at
inspectapedia.com/electric/Voltage_Measurement.php
If you have abnormal voltage entering the panel you should call your electric company for diagnosis and repair assistance and
Watch out: if the cause for voltage drop is in your equipment, wiring, or on your property there may be close-by serious safety hazards.
Safety Warning: Opening an electrical panel and approaching any live electrical wiring, devices, & equipment is a dangerous procedure that can damage electrical equipment or worse, cause electrical shock, or even death.
Such procedures should not be undertaken unless the person conducting the examination is trained and competent to avoid electric shock. If the inspector is not trained for this procedure s/he should never insert any instrument or tool into electrical equipment.
(June 1, 2014) Steve Pettifer said:
Starting to look like a break in the feed from main panel to sub panel.
Reply
Steve that's the sort of fault that left me worried about a site hazard - if wire is damaged and current is shorting somewhere; I've seen live electrical siding, porch railings, plumbing pipes, gas pipes.
(Sept 21, 2014) raul sanchez said:
What does open ground means
Raul
It means not connected to earth
In turn, that means "unsafe" since the grounding system cannot protect the occupants or wiring system if the grounding path is incomplete;
(Jan 23, 2015) curious said:
What is the difference between a 8 space 16 circuit panel and a 16 space 16 circuit panel?
Why would I choose one type over the other? (for what applications and/or their respective limitations)
I doubt that vendors are meticulous about terminology, but sometimes "space" means there is a spot to plug in a circuit breaker - the panel is unpopulated; while "circuit" may mean that a circuit breaker is included.
In any case, 16 spaces means you can plug in 16 circuit breakers with each breaker occupying one slot in the panel.
An 8-space panel that claims to offer 16 circuits must be using a form of circuit breaker that allows two breakers to fit into a single slot in the panel
(Jan 24, 2015) Mike said:
Where do you get your list for problem electrical panels?
Mike:
40 years of building inspection, publications, research, teaching and attending professional conferences, talking with electricians and builders and home inspectors, reading research on electrical failures, IEEE, Holm Conference, ASME, and various trade associations.
The original list of electrical distribution panel defects with which we started was scribbled out by a team of senior home inspectors, ASHI members, at a series of meetings intended to define an education curriculum as well as a basis for testing and certification exams for home inspectors.
Ultimately ASHI decided not to follow the curriculum plans though of course, home inspection education companies leapt into the gap.
But if you're saying you could add to the list, please do. None of us has a corner on the market of information.
14 Feb 2015 LarryP said:
I have a strange measurement- with the main breaker OFF and all other panel breakers OFF if I measure between the HOT side of the main breaker and the NEUTRAL bus bar I get 30vac- ideas please
Larry
Watch out: this sounds very dangerous; I suspect a damaged service entry cable (with an internal short) or a damaged electrical panel or main breaker (some brands like FPE can remain "on" internally when switched off physically)
When I found the condition you described my brother-in-law, a theater electrician who didn't need to follow the NEC, had over-tightened BX connectors so that at many electrical boxes the neutral and hot were dead shorted. We found those quickly.
But weaker shorts continued to trip GFCIs until we visited every single wire connection to find and re-make the faulty ones. Somewhere you may have a short hot to neutral or a failing electrical component giving the same effect.
...
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